Unlisted Maximianus from Lyon?

[six2ten]

This sans mint mark coin came as part of a small collection of coins from London, however:
1) it is not listed in the recent London mint publication; and (more critically)
2) it has an altar in the left field, making it a Lyon issue

It does not appear to be listed in RIC or Bastien (though I don't have access to the first supplement), nor is it listed on Lech's not in RIC site

The listing of the unmarked follies in RIC Lyons does not include any issues with an altar, while the listing in the Bastien study on Lyon of the unmarked continental folles has only plain busts, not cuirasses as this coin; further, none of these unmarked coins includes an altar either

The first issue in RIC with the altar has both the PL mintmark and a field mark (A or B). Interestingly it notes that the loins of Genius are occasionally draped, as with this coin.

Subject to having missed something obvious, it seems as though this is an unlisted issue, and I wonder whether it suggests that at least some of the altar coins should follow on from the unmarked coins. RIC notes that the chronology of some of the issues here is uncertain.

Any suggestions or identification issues that I have missed welcome

[Victor]

I am not very familiar with this type, but if it wasn't for the altar, I would have thought it was most likely from London. I checked the first Bastien supplement and there was not anything even close. Hopefully others will have more insight.

[Genio popvli romani]

I would also have said London. As the style of the bust matches the early issues of GPR for that mint (cf. RIC.17 for example)

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=61670

[Genio popvli romani]

Note also that the reverse is represented as the Genio Pop Rom issues not as the Genio Popvli Romani that will appear at the next issue. An inattentive engraver that have mixed legend with reverse type or a kind of protoype of the next Genio Pop Rom issue ? Would be very interesing to try to find an obverse die-match.

[six2ten]

Dear Victor, GPR, thanks for the replies. A good suggestion re obverse matches, I'll look through the London mint book as a starting point. As they are also still looking for unpublished coins I will bring it to the authors' attention directly too

It's not clear to me what you mean below, I.e that the reverse is represented as the Genio Pop Rom issues? What specifically is the representation ?

Note also that the reverse is represented as the Genio Pop Rom issues not as the Genio Popvli Romani that will appear at the next issue. An inattentive engraver that have mixed legend with reverse type or a kind of protoype of the next Genio Pop Rom issue ? Would be very interesing to try to find an obverse die-match.

[Genio popvli romani]

As far as I remember (may be I forget something) in London mint, only Genio Pop Rom has the loins draped and more generally, excepted a few issues from trier and a Constantine issue from Lyon, Genius is wearing chlamys on shoulder for Genio Popvli Romani reverse and has loins draped for Genio Pop Rom.

[six2ten]

Thanks for the further details, I'll look into that aspect as well

[six2ten]

A quick update: this specific coin is noted in the new London mint book under 'Reported types not included in this catalogue' at page 36; while noted as 'an apparent variety of 2.01.007, the rationale for not ncluding it is 'the laboured handling of the reverse design, especially of the drapery, suggests an attempt by a British forger, unfamiliar with this design, to copy a Lyon coin such as RIC 67.

Given the good style of the obverse, I am struggling to consider this a contemporary forgery, but am not very familiar with the Lyon issues, especially those with the draped loins ... I have been able to find one more coin with an altar but no mintmark, published in the 1944 Fyfield hoard report on plate V no. 50. Interestingly it has a slightly irregular obverse legend MAXIMIANUS NO C, but it has no stylistic affinities with my coin at all

[Genio popvli romani]

I believe that your coin is not an imitation and excepted the altar which is different from the ones on coins from the mint of Lugdunum , nothing reminds me Lyon's "inspired" style about Genius.
What I also believe is that Genius is holding a double cornucopia. It has to be checked for the other mints but for London, later examples exist.

[six2ten]

Thanks, yes it looks official to me as well. It's still a mystery though!

[leetoone]

Good afternoon everyone!

For completeness, this is what we say in LMCC:

"An apparent variety of 2.01.007 with a palmed cuirass appeared as part of Lot 689 in TRITON IV.
The catalogue description concludes: ‘The one unpublished variety deserves a complete description: Maximianus. Æ Follis (11.39 gm) IMP C MAXIMIANVS P F AVG , laureate and cuirassed bust right / GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI , Genius standing left, holding patera in right hand, cornucopiae in left, al- tar left, drapery around waist. The reverse of this coin with the altar and draped loins is more reminiscent of Lugdunum, but the obverse is clearly of London style, cf. RIC VI 17-22.’ The laboured handling of the reverse design, especially of the drapery, suggests an attempt by a British forger, unfamiliar with this design, to copy a Lyon coin such as RIC VI 67. The engraver was careful to drop the right field mark and the mint mark, but retained the altar in the left field, perhaps not realizing it too was part of the Lyon mark. Compare with Bastien 1980,171, pl. XXII.277a-e (RIC VI 92b for Lyon) for style."

Always open to other views though.

We found a number of coins, some in RIC, that we have suggested are unofficial. We have not done this lightly and have explained our position in each case after careful review.

Six2Ten - can we use your image of this coin on our website? We only have the original TRITON IV version which was a bit grainy to use in the book.

Best wishes

Lee Toone (and Hugh Cloke)

[six2ten]

Dear Lee

Thanks for chiming in - you are more than welcome to use the image. I am happy to re-take it if you need higher quality also. All I would ask in return is that you help me allocate some of my other unmarked coins, which I struggle with even with your combining of some of the RIC numbers :-)

In hand the coin looks fine, so at this stage we might have to agree to disagree as to whether it's an official issue or not. BTW, it came with an old ticket that notes it as being ex Sydenham, 'pt 812', so I assume as part of lot 812. I don't have a copy of that catalogue so haven't checked whether it adds anything (probably not if it was a multiple coin lot ...)

Regards

Allan

[leetoone]

Thanks Allan

Resolution looks okay. I'll refer to my co-author :-)

Identifying a few unmarked shouldn't be too onerous. Send me a PM with your email address, then I can copy Hugh in as he is in the lead for our early stuff.

I think I have the Sydenham catalogue somewhere, I'll take a look.

Cheers

Lee