Lyons VLPP with D6 bust

[Heliodromus]

I just got this this one and pretty pleased with it. Ho-hum cellphone photo will have to do for now. 18mm 3.32g.

 

The D6 bust (and associated "MAX" legend) is unlisted for this P-captives-L issue, although Lech's "Not in RIC"  has another example, plus one with a D5 bust (Same helmet as D6 but draped).

RIC does have a misdescribed D6 bust (RIC 63 - listed as D2) for the (earlier?) captives-only issue.

It's interesting to see the mix of H11 (high-crested decorated helmet) and D6 busts at the various mints during the VLPP type. Some used both, some primarily one or the other.

The Trier billion series of 313 AD (that the reintroduced VLPP is based) on had an H11L bust and PTR mintmark. So, it seems that in 318 AD Trier, now using two officinas, understandably wanted to avoid confusion between the earlier 20% silver coin and the new 5% silver one, and did so by:

1) Avoiding the H11L helmet for the early issues
2) Avoiding officina "P" for the early issues

RIC VII Trier 208A (which is basically the 313 AD billion coin) does have an R5 officina "S" listed (which would have to be non-billion), although I have my doubts whether it's official if not mis-read.
RIC VII Trier 208 (with D6 bust) does have an R5 officina "P" listed, although I've never seen one. It also seems suspect.

Lyons seems to have compensated for Trier's avoidance of the high-crested helmet by going the opposite way and using it almost exclusively, which is what makes these scarce D6 busts interesting.

[Victor]

1) Avoiding the H11L helmet for the early issues
2) Avoiding officina "P" for the early issues

RIC VII Trier 208A (which is basically the 313 AD billion coin) does have an R5 officina "S" listed (which would have to be non-billion), although I have my doubts whether it's official if not mis-read.
RIC VII Trier 208 (with D6 bust) does have an R5 officina "P" listed, although I've never seen one. It also seems suspect.

RIC VII Trier 208A is an H11 bust.

[Heliodromus]

RIC VII Trier 208A is an H11 bust.

Yes, but it doesn't exist as a 318 AD issue - that's the 313 AD billion they are describing !

[Victor]

but it does exist. here's two I sold-- die matches. First is silvered bronze and second has no silvering. These coins are quite distinct from the earlier billon issue of 313. So despite Bruun being confused about the billon issue, the type does exist in a silvered bronze for A.D. 318, so still Trier 208a.

[Heliodromus]

I'm not convinced that's an official die. It looks pretty crude.

I'd like to see RIC 209 officina "P" (R5), because otherwise it seems that RIC VII Trier 208A thru 222 (both VLPP and Licinius emperor-on-eagle) are all officina "S" other than otherwise idential "PTR" issues which are really misidentified 313 AD billion. Even the D6 bust VLPP and B5 bust emperor-on-eagle are officina "S".

It's not until the unambiguous shorter "PRIN P" VLPP legend (RIC 223) that we see officina "P" being used.

If officina "P" really was being used prior to RIC 223, then we might expect it in roughly equal quantities to officina "S", not just one or two very suspect looking pieces.

[Victor]

I'm convinced it's official!

This issue parallels the Licinius IOVI coins with eagle reverse. First issued in 313 as billon, then in 318 as a silvered coin...unless you think that the later Licinius issue in bronze does not exist either?

edited to add-- it seems that Trier may have tried assigned the first workshop of the 318 issue to Constantine and second to Licinius. Perhaps the initial rollout was rocky, it happens; but I only recall seeing bronze Licinius coins issued from workshops S and also don't believe I have ever seen a Constantine from S, official or not.

Also, I wonder how many "billon" coins are actually silvered bronze? A quick look through ACsearch turned up these ambiguous coins all sold as billon-- the middle really looks like it has patchy silvering.

[Heliodromus]

...unless you think that the later Licinius issue in bronze does not exist either?

No - obviously the 313AD Trier 20% silver billion types were reused in 318 AD for the new 5% silver denomination. No doubt if Daia was still alive we'd have seen a 318 AD quadriga too!

The 313 AD coins are all mintmark PTR (pecunia, not prima, since there's only one officina in use). The officina "S" coins are then obviously all 318 AD.

What I'm suggesting is that ALL (official!) officina "P" coins that could be confused with the Trier billion ones are in fact billion. Furthermore, even the 318 AD coins that are already unambiguous due to using a different bust type from the 313 AD billion (i.e. D6 VLPP, B5 emp-on-eagle) are also only officina "S" !

Of course RIC VI and VII are both confused about the 20% vs 5% versions of these coins. RIC VI 825 is listed for both officina "P" and "S", but the "S" is presumably really from 318 AD.

Here from my collection :

313 AD 20% silver (RIC VI 825)

 

318 AD 5% silver (RIC VII 211)

 

[Victor]

I don't believe that Licinius would get to re-use his old Trier type but Constantine would not get to use his. It seems very unlikely that they would also only use workshop S. The billon coins were also probably not circulating after the monetary reform of 318-- or if you did spend one, it was your loss!

[Heliodromus]

I don't believe that Licinius would get to re-use his old Trier type but Constantine would not get to use his.

I'm not saying that. The whole 318 AD VLPP type is of course Constantine getting to re-use his type. All I'm suggesting is that at Trier (where the potential for confusion exists, since they'd issued the earlier billion coins) they took steps to avoid confusion by initially only using officina "S" and D6 busts.

It seems very unlikely that they would also only use workshop S

Certainly notable, but it could make sense for reason suggested. Some coins we know for sure were issued in 318 AD because of the different bust types ... why are those all officina "S" ?

Just to come full circle, since this thread started with a Lyons VLPP, here's another Lyons VLPP, but sadly not my coin. This is Ibercoin auction 27 # 328. Here we have Lyons, who had never used this bust type before, resuing the Trier 313 AD special bust for Licinius.

 

[Victor]

... why are those all officina "S" ?

definitely something to ponder...and, very nice coin that originally started this thread.

[Nikko]

... and the 4th specimen of this type came out.

Listed in Bastien Suppl II 16 alpha a).