Late Roman Bronze Coins

Coin talk => Unlisted => Topic started by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 08:01:42 AM

Title: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 08:01:42 AM: :o

more details and a better picture in a few days
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Genio popvli romani on January 24, 2017, 08:55:54 AM: There are some rare coins with the VICTORIA AETERNA AVG N reverse (different representation) from Arles but we should see S|F in field.
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=12&ateliers=7&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=&numnbd=&legendes=393&nombreResultats=50&btRechercher=Rechercher (http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=12&ateliers=7&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=&numnbd=&legendes=393&nombreResultats=50&btRechercher=Rechercher)
It is possible it has been stuck during the previous issue (no letters in field) as the both TRB P CONS IIII PP PROCONSVL series - with or without S|F - indicate that the two issues are very close.

Or a well made forgery. ;D

P.S. Congratulations for getting it !
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 09:04:48 AM: iconographically it is very similar to FELICITAS PERPETVA SAECVLI (RIC VII Arles 114) which is a solidus. It has emperor receiving victory on globe from Sol with captive between, versus this coin with emperor receiving palm from Victory with captive/ suppliant between.

p.s. some may not realize the significance of this coin; but it is unrecorded for the reverse type
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Genio popvli romani on January 24, 2017, 11:13:11 AM: Yes indeed, the iconography is quite the same.
(https://www.lateromanbronzecoinforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nummus-bible-database.com%2Fimages%2F300x141%2F49441.jpg&hash=4de8210e79b93b69a7ee984ee957745976fe4892)
In the other hand, reverse legend and iconography are directly imported from Maxentius' coinage of Ostia. Which is not a surprise.
(https://www.acsearch.info/media/images/archive/83/1308/1103165.m.jpg)
Very interesting early coin from Arles mint.
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 12:47:44 PM: here is a picture of some coins from Drost's Le Monnayage De Maxence that show similar reverses which probably served as a model for this coin. Maybe even engraved by the same person after the transfer of the Ostia mint to Arles.
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: marandnumiz on January 24, 2017, 01:36:46 PM: Congratulations! This is indeed a fantastic find. I am sure it will turn out to be genuine - you have done quite a bit of research to place this coin in the right context.
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Paul Bulgerin on January 24, 2017, 06:25:26 PM: Congratulations, Victor!

I was the other guy in the auction and my bid of $455 wasn't quite high enough.

I had a great time trying to figure out what this might be as I watched the auction count down.

I've already posted questions about it on the Coin Community Forum ancients link and also Moneta-L.

I look forward to learning what you find out about it and am very glad it is the best of hands where the rest of us will benefit from you owning it.

Paul Bulgerin
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 06:34:40 PM: Hello Paul

I hate having to bid against anyone, but I really wanted to get my hands on this coin. If it makes you feel better, my max bid was quite a bit higher.

I have included the original auction photos below and the description

"Lot of 6 Obvious and Very Fine Roman Coins, The Licinus is 25 mm for Reference."
Title: Re: Constantine I...unlisted
Post by: lrbguy on January 24, 2017, 06:57:26 PM: If the Licinius in that lot is 25mm, then this coin must be about 23mm. That compares with the late bronzes for Maxentius from Ostia for size.

One thing about this that caught my eye is the interesting posture of the captive, if I am seeing it correctly. This one appears to be at the feet of Victory but facing emperor and kneeling on left knee with right foot forward holding some offering toward the emperor. If that is the pose, it is quite a departure from the predecessor models and from the FELICITAS PERPETVA SAECVLI solidus.

A most interesting coin to finally surface. Congratulations on a fine acquisition.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Paul Bulgerin on January 24, 2017, 08:37:53 PM: Victor,

I don't have any bad feelings about losing this auction. I spent the whole evening researching the coin trying to figure out what it might be and had a very good time doing so. I haven't come across many interesting or unusual ancient coins on eBay lately, so this was fun.

I bid what I could afford and things looked good . . . until there was one second left in the auction.

So much of the enjoyment in collecting ancients is the "thrill of the hunt".

I am anxious to see your photos and hear what you learn about this interesting Constantine.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 24, 2017, 11:49:58 PM: Quote from: Paul Bulgerin on January 24, 2017, 08:37:53 PM

I spent the whole evening researching the coin trying to figure out what it might be and had a very good time doing so.
.

Yes, it was a good bit of fun. I brought out RIC VI and VII, Ferrando and Drost and spent some quality time with my friends having an interesting conversation.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 27, 2017, 12:49:48 AM: Below is another picture of the coin; however, I am not sure about the reverse legend. Even in hand and in different lighting, holding it at different angles and just staring at it ad nauseum; it is not clear. VICTORIA AETERNA AVGG NN (or some variation) would make sense; but the legend after VICTORIA is not clear. Below is a picture of a Constantine coin from Ostia with a legend of VICTORIA AET AVGGG NNN that is also not in RIC. The emperor on the reverse of each coin is almost identical, but the legend on the Ostia coin reflects the three Emperors (Constantine, Licinius, and Maximinus); while the coin from Arles could only have at most two emperors, as Maximinus II was never recognized on coinage after the Ostia mint transferred to Arles. Perhaps the kneeling figure is meant to represent Maximinus II. Since the style is similar to Ostia coinage, it makes sense that this coin was issued shortly after the Arles mint opened, so Constantine and Licinius would be recognized with a legend that ends with AVGG NN. Since I am not sure of the exact legend, I am putting that part in the description in brackets.

Constantine I
Circa A.D. 313
21mm 3.7gm
IMP C CONSTANTINVS P F AVG; laureate and cuirassed bust right.
VICTORIA [AETERNA AVGG NN]; Emperor on right, in military dress, holding spear, receiving palm branch from Victory; kneeling figure between them [holding offering].
In exergue SARL
RIC VII Arles â€”
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Gundobad on January 28, 2017, 10:19:24 AM: I found a picture of the coin on line at: http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/types/VICTORIA_Arles.JPG
Not sure who has this site but they could only interpret the (Victoria...) also.
Interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 28, 2017, 11:35:23 AM: Quote from: Gundobad on January 28, 2017, 10:19:24 AM
Not sure who has this site

That's a great site...it's mine :D
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: tenbobbit on January 28, 2017, 07:41:58 PM: Hi Victor, I hope you didn't mind me linking a few interested parties regarding this " very " interesting coin.

I keep coming back to stare at it for a while to see if I can make sense of the reverse.

I could be way off the mark but I don't see the " AETERNA AUGGNN " legend fitting the space from tip of spear down.
If this is correct then maybe it is more like the Ostia issue " AET AVGGNN " instead of "AET AVGGGNNN "

The figure of victory also has me a little confused, it looks like she has her hand on the head of the kneeling figure and she is stood on a shield ( like the fallen horseman type ) which is part of her dress on the Ostia coin whereas the emperor looks as you say virtually identical to the Ostia type.

Then there is the Reverse that almost looks like a die match with the letters in the same positions on both the examples you posted ( arles & ostia ) and the bust looks pretty similar too.

This is only a theory based on what I can see and your info Victor, could this be struck with re-worked dies from the Ostia mint and the reverse has had Maximinus added being presented to the emperor by victory and some slight alterations of the legend ?
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 28, 2017, 10:36:30 PM: I didn't mind the linking. I have been a member of CCF for about 10 years, but rarely post there.

Yes, the legend could quite possibly be AET vs AETERNA, which is why I said "or some variation" as I don't feel sure on anything. On my reverse types page linked above, I simply recorded the legend as VICTORIA [??]

I tried counting letter shaped blobs and still was not certain. I even started "seeing" other possibilities, which did not make as much sense...instead of VICTORIA AE[??] maybe VICTORIA FE[LICITAS AVG] or VICTORIA TE[MPORVM AVG]

As far as it being a reworked die, I don't think it is likely. This goes far beyond just re-engraving, to the point of "un-engraving" -- adding metal to the die to fill in previous engravings, like the legend and arm positions. The two reverses certainly look very similar though; which seems to indicate the same engraver.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: tenbobbit on January 31, 2017, 03:34:53 PM: Back staring at it again.

I have just been looking through some auctions and found this which immediately caught my eye -

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=329413

Is there the ghost of a removed figure between the two standing or are my eyes deceiving me ?

Could this be another one from the same source ?
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on January 31, 2017, 05:37:45 PM: Quote from: tenbobbit on January 31, 2017, 03:34:53 PM
Could this be another one from the same source ?

that's the prow of a galley. Below is another example that is pretty clear
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: lrbguy on February 10, 2017, 12:11:35 PM: Perhaps we are allowing ourselves to be too influenced by the model from Ostia. I would like to offer another reading of the reverse legend.

Given the posture of the kneeling figure (perhaps Maximinus II?) and the recognition of only two emperors, plus the isolated appearance of the two letters after VICTORIA, and the apparent doubling of the final letter nearest the foot of the figure standing on right, I would submit: VICTORIA FE-LICIT AVGG
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on February 10, 2017, 12:20:44 PM: Quote from: lrbguy on February 10, 2017, 12:11:35 PM
I would like to offer another reading of the reverse legend.
I would submit: VICTORIA FE-LICIT AVGG

Yes, I have already said I am not sure of the reverse legend and offered other possibilities, which of course could include any variations of said legends FE[LICITAS] and TE[MPORVM] coupled with AVG, AVG N, AVGG, AVGG N, AVGG NN etc.

and another possibility- VICTORIA PE[RPETVA]

Quote from: Victor on January 28, 2017, 10:36:30 PM
instead of VICTORIA AE[??] maybe VICTORIA FE[LICITAS AVG] or VICTORIA TE[MPORVM AVG]

because of the uncertainty, I have listed this coin on my reverse types page as VICTORIA [??]
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on March 22, 2017, 10:50:37 AM: This coin has a new home...back where it came from.

Arles Museum of Antiquity

http://www.arles-antique.cg13.fr/mdaa_cg13/root/index.htm
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: tenbobbit on March 22, 2017, 01:11:08 PM: That was a quick flip Victor.
I am assuming their offer was too good to turn down ;)
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Genio popvli romani on March 22, 2017, 01:44:25 PM: Great !
I've been informed of that good news this week-end, and was thinking it is a good thing that this part of Arles' history is coming back. Particularly at the town museum.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on April 29, 2017, 02:36:13 PM: I would like to thank everyone for the comments and link to the webpage that I finally made about this coin-

http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/VICTORIA/
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Corduba on September 22, 2020, 06:54:09 AM: "Below is a picture of a Constantine coin from Ostia with a legend of VICTORIA AET AVGGG NNN that is also not in RIC".

By the way I am the owner of this coin. ;)

Best regards, Ignacio.
Title: Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
Post by: Victor on September 22, 2020, 09:04:53 AM: congrats on a nice, rare coin