Author Topic: Constantine and his Pannonian hat  (Read 7999 times)

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Offline livingwater

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Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« on: October 19, 2014, 04:57:29 PM »
This type has been discussed on ancients.info.  I saw this example for sale on ebay today.   Victor, do you think most or all of these are fake?

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 06:57:41 PM »
I have only seen two examples of this type that I thought were authentic (one of which is shown in the Ancients.info thread), and the style of the ones that look right are completely different from the fake ones sold on Ebay. The example you posted looks the same (or similar) as one someone posted on FORVM a few years ago and got angry when he was told it was a fake...he was probably the guy that made it!

Here is an earlier topic about this same coin offered by the same seller-

http://www.lateromanbronzecoinforum.com/index.php?topic=349.0

Below are the two that I think are authentic and you can see how different they look in style and the flan from the fake you posted.

The third picture is a fake from the same dies that you posted, but given an artificial patina to make it look more ancient.


Offline Nikko

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 11:45:51 AM »
The ex Beastcoins one and the recent specimen sold by G6M probaby are two ancient but heavy tooled coins.

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 01:36:34 PM »
The ex Beastcoins one and the recent specimen sold by G6M probaby are two ancient but heavy tooled coins.

Yes, some people believe that, others do not. David Sear examined Beast's coin and said that he thought that it was authentic. Opinions on coins like this will always differ...Curtis Clay thinks it is authentic but Barry Murphy believes it is tooled.

I don't think it is tooled because I don't see how an original VLPP from Siscia could be tooled into looking like it does.

You would need to start with a right facing bust without spear and the best candidate would be RIC 53. It does not really seem possible that one could remove all evidence of the helmet and replace it with a Pannonian hat and change the legend without it being obvious. Also note that the Pannonia coins are draped, possibly draped and cuirassed while RIC 53 is cuirassed only, so that is even more tooling, which would have been completely unnecessary if one only wanted to fake the hat. These earlier issue VLPP's also have a pretty high relief, so a lot of metal would need to be removed to transform a regular VLPP in a hat coin.  Below is RIC 53 and a hat coin for illustration.

Offline seuk

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 04:50:40 AM »
The obverse dies are identical which should rule tooling out - unless it can be done by an engraving machine? There's some difference fx in the hair behind the ear though. So I guess some minor tooling has been done on one of them. The reverse on the top example seems quite uncommon for Siscia while the other is a normal variation.

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 10:12:44 AM »
another fake example for sale from Bulgaria...at least this one has a better patina than the first example posted.


Offline romeman

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2016, 10:17:48 AM »
In case anyone still has some interest in the above, I post this note to say that I have just published a paper on these coins together with Zach Beasley (owner of the 2003 Pannonian hat coin) and Ron Bude:

Full reference: Lars Ramskold, Ronald Bude, Zachary Beasley, 2016: Methods for Authenticating Ancient Bronze Coins: A Case Study of Constantine's "Pannonian Cap" Coin. Niš & Byzantium XIV, pp. 87-121.

Summary: The most discussed and controversial of all ancient bronze coins is the so called Pannonian cap coin, discovered in 2003, showing Constantine I wearing a pillbox cap. We have examined every detail of this coin through stereoscopic wet and dry study, physical probing, iconographical analysis, die matching, and two types of radiological analyses: XEDS and micro-CT scanning. Each individual way of investigation indicates that the coin is ancient, and we are confident that it was produced in 318-319 CE. It shares the obverse die with a second Cap coin, discovered in 2012, which is thus also ancient. We identify the reverse die of the 2003 coin as engraved by an Imperial Mint engraver, and since the two coins share the same obverse die, it is likely but not certain that they were produced at the Imperial Mint of Siscia. Nor is it certain that they were officially sanctioned. We show that headgear seen on early 4th C art - including the porphyry tetrarchs in Venice and Niš; the Arch of Constantine; the great hunt mosaic in the Roman villa at Piazza Armerina; and on numerous palaeochristian sarcophagi - conventionally identified as the "Pannonian cap" of Vegetius, is in fact the headgear of the lictors...the state-paid summoners - at the time. We accordingly identify the pillbox cap on the two coins as that of a lictor.

The full paper is available on Academia.org.

I hope the paper will stimulate further ideas and research.

/Lars Ramskold

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2016, 11:37:36 AM »
In case anyone still has some interest in the above, I post this note to say that I have just published a paper on these coins together with Zach Beasley (owner of the 2003 Pannonian hat coin) and Ron Bude


Thank you for the info on the paper


p.s. I am glad that my website on VLPP's was useful

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2017, 01:05:23 PM »
another fake from from amorcoins713

http://www.ebay.com/usr/amorcoins713

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2017, 11:16:00 AM »
amorcoins713 has the same fake for sell...with an opening bid of 344.99 euros

http://www.ebay.com/usr/amorcoins713?_trksid=p2047675.l2559


Offline Genio popvli romani

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2019, 02:13:27 AM »
A "new" specimen for sale at Lanz.


ROMA CAPVT MVNDI REGIT ORBIS FRENA ROTVNDI

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 10:10:32 AM »
thanks for the link...Lanz seems intent on completely destroying what little remains of his once great reputation.

Offline Genio popvli romani

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2019, 12:01:29 PM »
What is his leitmotiv ? Ho yes ! "Cash is beautiful".
Note that he is citing Lars article as reference.
ROMA CAPVT MVNDI REGIT ORBIS FRENA ROTVNDI

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2019, 10:28:37 PM »

regarding his business model, a few years ago Lanz made a post on Coin Forgery Discussion List--

"Restoration is not tooling.Beauty sells better not only in women."  Dr. Hubert Lanz   

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine and his Pannonian hat
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2019, 02:16:25 PM »

the Lanz fake just sold for $232.94