Author Topic: 5 unofficial VLPP die matches  (Read 3606 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Victor

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
  • Country: us
  • all my best friends are dead Romans
    • Victor's Imperial Coins
5 unofficial VLPP die matches
« on: October 31, 2015, 01:10:47 PM »
I just got a third unofficial VLPP (16mm x 17mm, 2.08g) that matches two coins that were part of my metallurgical analysis of 22 of these Siscian imitations. These obverse & reverse matches don't help with any numismatic inquiries and are really only a novelty, but it is neat that they are reunited.

I included the analysis for the two coins #21 and #22

my page with rest of the material-
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/barb2/



Offline Victor

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
  • Country: us
  • all my best friends are dead Romans
    • Victor's Imperial Coins
Re: 4 VLPP die matches
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 03:01:49 PM »
here is a fourth die match

16mm  2.0gm

Offline romeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Country: se
Re: 4 VLPP die matches
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2016, 08:21:30 AM »
Material like this triggers so many questions. Hoards show that these copies circulated with the official coinage. Your metallurgic analyses show that they must have been valued similarly. We can therefore assume a similar survival rate for official and unofficial coins. Apart from in hoards with coins fresh from the mint, it is not easy to find four late Roman coins from the same dies. In my material from the Rome mint, which for certain periods includes virtually every specimen known in museums and private hands, each die is known from on average a few coins at most, and it is rare with four double die matched examples. The highest number of double die-matched coins is below ten.

These circumstances clearly indicate that these unofficial copies were produced in huge numbers, with the output per die equaling or exceeding the numbers produced in the imperial mints.

This in turn shows that the unofficial dies were of a quality, hardness and durability comparable to the official dies. The "barbarians" producing the "barbarous" copies, must have been as skilled metalworkers as the Romans.

For one, the "barbarous" copies were often (always?) silvered, like the official coins. Even now, we have no idea how this was done (although a profusion of ideas have been forwarded).

Another line of thought: the official mints collected coins that no longer could circulate as official coinage (for example the eastern IOVI coins of Licinius were not accepted in the west and were regularly overstruck at the official mints to make regular coinage. Victor's metallurgical analyses seem to indicate that the barbarians" also collected such coins and used the metal to strike their copies. This raises many questions.

Why on earth would they do that? Did they sit on enormous amounts of old or unaccepted bronze coins? Outside the limes, did they even use coins for monetary purposes? From the uniface gold medallions struck by Constantine and others for the "barbarian" leaders we know that they were not using gold as coinage. And bronze?

If they produced the millions of "barbarous" copies not for themselves but for use as coins in areas where also official coinage circulated, there must have been a profit involved. If they didn't sit on tons of coins that were no longer permitted to circulate, did they specifically import such coins from other areas of the empire? Seems very far fetched. So where did they get the coins to melt and re-strike?

Another line of thought: Did the "barbarous" copies fill a need? Was there a shortage of coins when they were produced? If so, why wasn't that shortage taken care of by the imperial mints? The output at the imperial mints varied enormously, as a response to need. Whenever there was a need to pay troops (poor guys, getting bronze coins rather than the stipulated silver and gold, but that must have been the case), the official output increased manyfold (for example during each war between Constantine and his co-emperors). This shows that any shortage of coinage was easily taken care of by the imperial mints.

So shortage of coinage cannot explain the production of "barbarous" coins.

Sorry that I produce many more questions than answers. One question leads to another, and another. I can't remember having seen a detailed discussion of these questions. This should be the topic for a PhD for a student somewhere.


Offline Victor

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
  • Country: us
  • all my best friends are dead Romans
    • Victor's Imperial Coins
Re: 4 VLPP die matches
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2016, 11:05:32 AM »
The "barbarians" producing the "barbarous" copies, must have been as skilled metalworkers as the Romans.

In some instances, we know that they were Romans, or at least worked in the Imperial mints...or at least the Roman government believed so.

Theodosian Code 9:21:2
Since some imperial minters are secretly and criminally engaged in the coinage of counterfeit money, all shall know that the necessity is incumbent on them of seeking out such men, that they may be tracked down and delivered to the courts, so that they may forthwith betray the accomplices of their deeds through torture and thereupon be sentenced to suitable punishments. (20 November 321)

Bastien even said that some of these coins probably came from "well organized work-shops."

So shortage of coinage cannot explain the production of "barbarous" coins.

here is a quote from my page on unofficial 4th century coinage- "There are several theories about the origins of these coins but the easiest and possibly best explanation is that they were minted because of a shortage of official coinage.  This easy explanation surely does not answer every question though..."
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/barb2/

I think that most often it was simply an economic factor involved in the production of unofficial coinage during this period- one could make more profit by melting down demonetized coins with less silver content than the official VLPP's. Also from my page- "You could actually make money hand over fist...I heard that the phrase "make money hand over fist" referred to the minting practice of holding the die in your fist and striking with a hammer in your other hand. I cannot verify the validity of this, though!"

p.s.  I needed to add that shortage is also an important element. Roman coins were not minted to be given to the citizens, rather coins were minted for government purposes. So coins were minted and eventually made it to soldiers, who were not paid regularly, and eventually the coins made it into circulation. Also government purchases of grain, wine, etc. would have put coin into circulation. So there would have been a definite shortage of coins for most people, at least initially.

Offline seuk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Country: dk
Re: 4 VLPP die matches
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 04:37:32 PM »
Here's another example of almost 4 die matches - except that the top and bottom coin only matches obverse and reverse die respectively. In other words a small die chain.

I think many imitations were produced from dies with a fairly shallow relief compared to the original roman coinage. If one adds a less strict quality control that may explain the longer duration/higher output from the dies.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 04:40:51 PM by seuk »

Offline Victor

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
  • Country: us
  • all my best friends are dead Romans
    • Victor's Imperial Coins
Re: 5 unofficial VLPP die matches
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 05:43:54 PM »

I just won a lot with a 5th die match to the above examples. It's on the bottom row to the right.