Author Topic: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded  (Read 2032 times)

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Offline Victor

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Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« on: January 24, 2017, 08:01:42 AM »
 :o

more details and a better picture in a few days



Offline Genio popvli romani

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2017, 08:55:54 AM »
There are some rare coins with the VICTORIA AETERNA AVG N reverse (different representation) from Arles but we should see S|F in field.
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=12&ateliers=7&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=&numnbd=&legendes=393&nombreResultats=50&btRechercher=Rechercher
 It is possible it has been stuck during the previous issue (no letters in field) as the both TRB P CONS IIII PP PROCONSVL series - with or without S|F - indicate that the two issues are very close.

Or a well made forgery. ;D

P.S. Congratulations for getting it !
ROMA CAPVT MVNDI REGIT ORBIS FRENA ROTVNDI

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2017, 09:04:48 AM »
iconographically it is very similar to FELICITAS PERPETVA SAECVLI (RIC VII Arles 114) which is a solidus. It has emperor receiving victory on globe from Sol with captive between, versus this coin with emperor receiving palm from Victory with captive/ suppliant between.


p.s. some may not realize the significance of this coin; but it is unrecorded for the reverse type

Offline Genio popvli romani

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2017, 11:13:11 AM »
Yes indeed, the iconography is quite the same.

In the other hand, reverse legend and iconography are directly imported from Maxentius' coinage of Ostia. Which is not a surprise.

Very interesting early coin from Arles mint.
ROMA CAPVT MVNDI REGIT ORBIS FRENA ROTVNDI

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2017, 12:47:44 PM »
here is a picture of some coins from Drost's Le Monnayage De Maxence that show similar reverses which probably served as a model for this coin. Maybe even engraved by the same person after the transfer of the Ostia mint to Arles.

Offline marandnumiz

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2017, 01:36:46 PM »
Congratulations! This is indeed a fantastic find. I am sure it will turn out to be genuine - you have done quite a bit of research to place this coin in the right context.

Offline Paul Bulgerin

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2017, 06:25:26 PM »
Congratulations, Victor!

I was the other guy in the auction and my bid of $455 wasn't quite high enough.

I had a great time trying to figure out what this might be as I watched the auction count down.

I've already posted questions about it on the Coin Community Forum ancients link and also Moneta-L.

I look forward to learning what you find out about it and am very glad it is the best of hands where the rest of us will benefit from you owning it.

Paul Bulgerin

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2017, 06:34:40 PM »
Hello Paul

I hate having to bid against anyone, but I really wanted to get my hands on this coin. If it makes you feel better, my max bid was quite a bit higher.

I have included the original auction photos below and the description

"Lot of 6 Obvious and Very Fine Roman Coins, The Licinus is 25 mm for Reference."

Offline lrbguy

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Re: Constantine I...unlisted
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2017, 06:57:26 PM »
If the Licinius in that lot is 25mm, then this coin must be about 23mm.  That compares with the late bronzes for Maxentius from Ostia for size.

One thing about this that caught my eye is the interesting posture of the captive, if I am seeing it correctly.  This one appears to be  at the feet of Victory but facing emperor and kneeling on left knee with right foot forward holding some offering toward the emperor.  If that is the pose, it is quite a departure from the predecessor models and from the  FELICITAS PERPETVA SAECVLI solidus.

A most interesting coin to finally surface.  Congratulations on a fine acquisition.

Offline Paul Bulgerin

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 08:37:53 PM »
Victor,

I don't have any bad feelings about losing this auction.  I spent the whole evening researching the coin trying to figure out what it might be and had a very good time doing so.  I haven't come across many interesting or unusual ancient coins on eBay lately, so this was fun.

I bid what I could afford and things looked good . . . until there was one second left in the auction.

So much of the enjoyment in collecting ancients is the "thrill of the hunt".

I am anxious to see your photos and hear what you learn about this interesting Constantine.

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 11:49:58 PM »

  I spent the whole evening researching the coin trying to figure out what it might be and had a very good time doing so. 
.

Yes, it was a good bit of fun. I brought out RIC VI and VII, Ferrando and Drost and spent some quality time with my friends having an interesting conversation.




Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2017, 12:49:48 AM »
Below is another picture of the coin; however, I am not sure about the reverse legend. Even in hand and in different lighting, holding it at different angles and just staring at it ad nauseum; it is not clear.  VICTORIA AETERNA AVGG NN (or some variation) would make sense; but the legend after VICTORIA is not clear. Below is a picture of a Constantine coin from Ostia with a legend of VICTORIA AET AVGGG NNN that is also not in RIC. The emperor on the reverse of each coin is almost identical, but the legend on the Ostia coin reflects the three Emperors (Constantine, Licinius, and Maximinus); while the coin from Arles could only have at most two emperors, as Maximinus II was never recognized on coinage after the Ostia mint transferred to Arles. Perhaps the kneeling figure is meant to represent Maximinus II. Since the style is similar to Ostia coinage, it makes sense that this coin was issued shortly after the Arles mint opened, so Constantine and Licinius would be recognized with a legend that ends with AVGG NN. Since I am not sure of the exact legend, I am putting that part in the description in brackets.

Constantine I
Circa A.D. 313
21mm    3.7gm
IMP C CONSTANTINVS P F AVG; laureate and cuirassed bust right.
VICTORIA [AETERNA AVGG NN]; Emperor on right, in military dress, holding spear, receiving palm branch from Victory; kneeling figure between them [holding offering].
In exergue SARL
RIC VII Arles —

Offline Gundobad

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2017, 10:19:24 AM »
I found a picture of the coin on line at: http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/types/VICTORIA_Arles.JPG
Not sure who has this site but they could only interpret the (Victoria...) also.
Interesting discussion.

Offline Victor

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2017, 11:35:23 AM »
Not sure who has this site

That's a great site...it's mine  :D

Offline tenbobbit

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Re: Constantine I VICTORIA from Arles...urecorded
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2017, 07:41:58 PM »
Hi Victor, I hope you didn't mind me linking a few interested parties regarding this " very " interesting coin.

I keep coming back to stare at it for a while to see if I can make sense of the reverse.

I could be way off the mark but I don't see the " AETERNA AUGGNN " legend fitting the space from tip of spear down.
If this is correct then maybe it is more like the Ostia issue " AET AVGGNN " instead of "AET  AVGGGNNN "

The figure of victory also has me a little confused,  it looks like she has her hand on the head of the kneeling figure and she is stood on a shield ( like the fallen horseman type ) which is part of her dress on the Ostia coin whereas the emperor looks as you say virtually identical to the Ostia type.

Then there is the Reverse that almost looks like a die match with the letters in the same positions on both the examples you posted ( arles & ostia ) and the bust looks pretty similar too.

This is only a theory based on what I can see and your info Victor, could this be struck with re-worked dies from the Ostia mint and the reverse has had Maximinus added being presented to the emperor by victory and some slight alterations of the legend ?